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John Taylor (1808-1887) Three Nights' Public Discussion (Liverpool: 1850) |
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Udney Jacob's Peace Maker (1842) | Pratt's "Plurality of Wives" (1852) | 1852 message
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THREE NIGHTS PUBLIC DISCUSSION BETWEEN THE REVDS. C. W. CLEEVE, JAMES ROBERTSON, AND PHILIP CATER, AND ELDER JOHN TAYLOR, OF THE Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, AT BOULOGNE-SUR-MER, FRANCE. CHAIRMAN, REV. K. GROVES, M.A., ASSISTED BY CHARLES TOWNLEY, LL.D., AND MR. LUDDY. ___________________ ALSO A R E P L Y TO THE REV. K. GROVES, M.A., & CHARLES TOWNLEY, LL.D. Price Eightpence each. LIVERPOOL: PUBLISHED BY JOHN TAYLOR, AND FOR SALE BY O. PRATT, AT 15, WILTON STREET, AND BY AGENTS THROUGHOUT GREAT BRITAIN AND IN BOULOGNE. 1850. |
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ACCORDING to my appointment to France by the authorities of the Church at the Great Salt Lake City, I arrived at the town of Boulogne-sur-mer, in company with Curtis E. Bolton, John Pack, and W. Howell, for the purpose of preaching the principles of the Everlasting Gospel. Soon after our arrival I published two communications in the Boulogne Interpreter, giving an account of the visit of the Angel to Joseph Smith, the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and the first principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. These were published both in French and English. I also took a hall in the central part of the town, for the purpose of delivering a course of lectures, and gave public notice in hand bills and in the newspaper. After the lecture on the first evening, a Mr. Robertson, an Independent Minister, arose and wished to have the privilege of asking a few questions. I told him that I would answer as many as he pleased, either at my house or his, but could not admit of any thing that might lead to a disturbance. He then stated that he wished to do it for the good of the public, as he had some friends there. I told him if it were his friends he was interested about, he could bring them with him, or I would meet them either at his house or mine. Concerning the public, he could leave them to me; I was going to give them the necessary information in my lectures, but I could not, and would not, be interrupted in my meetings. He followed us on our way home, any seemed very anxious to converse, but soon manifested a wicked spirit. A Baptist Preacher who accompanied him, was also very officious. They stated that "Joe" Smith was an impostor, and they could prove it. I told them to prove whatever that liked in their own way, I cared nothing for their opinions -- that I was personally acquainted with Joseph Smith -- that he was a gentleman, and would not treat a stranger as they had treated me -- that I wished no further conversation with them. They still dogged after me, but I answered them no further. The same men had disturbed Brother Howell's meetings before, of which he had informed me. On the 4th July we received the following note by a messenger, who wished to know when he should call for an answer. I told him next day at twelve o'clock, that as I was a stranger in the place, I would not take any steps of that kind without consulting the Mayor. Boulogne-sur-mer. "To Messrs. John Taylor, Curtis E. Bolton, John Pack, and W. Howell, Mormonites."Sirs, -- The extraordinary nature of your pretensions and announcements, made us desirous of having their validity and truth enquired into, at the meetings called by yourselves and before the people whom you address; but as you have declined all public investigation at your own meetings, we have judged it proper to address to you to you this respectful public challenge, to meet us in open and public debate, in order that the validity of your pretensions, and the truth of your announcements may be fairly and publicly investigated. The following are some of the points which we are desirous of having submitted to an open and public investigation: "1st. -- The late Joseph Smith. The origin and course of his public and pretended religious career. Was he a truthful and honest man, or a blasphemous and daring impostor? "2nd. -- The Book of Mormon. Is it, as you pretend, a revelation from God? What are the pretended facts of its discovery." Is it not a stupid and ignorant farrago of nonsense? 2 PUBLIC DISCUSSION. Is it not the spoiled production of a man who wrote a parody for his own amusement, but who never would have dared to offer it as a revelation from God? What must be the character of the party who exhibit such a book to the world as a Divine Revelation, and of equal authority with the sacred writings of the Old and New Testament? "3rd. -- Yourselves! The pretended facts of your Direct Appointment by God, to preach what you call the Gospel. The circumstances and nature of the Divine Revelation to which you lay claim. The mode in which you carry out your pretended divine commission. Your pretended miracles and signs. What are they? Are they true or false? "Until those and kindred points are fully investigated and settled to the satisfaction of honest men, we presume that your attempts at the exposition of the Word of God, may well be spared, as you can scarcely expect to be listened to with respect, while the suspicions which now attach to you are unremoved, and while you are viewed as the representatives of one of the clumsiest and most blasphemous impostures which has ever been attempted to be palmed upon the ignorant and credulous of mankind. If you accept of our challenge, the time, place, and conditions of the investigation can be mutually arranged. "Waiting the favour of your answer, we have the honour to be, "Sirs, "Your most obedient servants, "JAMES ROBERTSON, "PHILIP CATER." I enclosed this communication to his Worship the Mayor, who wrote a very polite note, informing me that there would be no objection to such a meeting. We then addressed the following note to those gentlemen:-- "Boulogue-sur-mer, July 5. "Messrs. C. W. Cleeve, James Robertson, and Philip Cater."Gentlemen, -- We received your singular production, which we consider rather an uncourteous document from gentlemen of your profession. "Were we not strangers here, we should pay no attention to it. As it is, we think proper to accept; but as it is unnecessary for so many to engage in a discussion of this kind, we have appointed Mr. Taylor on our behalf. "Gentlemen, "Yours obediently, JOHN PACK, CURTIS E. BOLTON, WILLIAM HOWELL." "Gentlemen, -- In this matter I shall expect half of the time, and A fair and equitable arrangement, the which, I, as a matter of course, shall he consulted about. I, at the same time, engage to prove the doctrines that you profess, to be false and unscriptural, and that you have no legal authority to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And surely, gentlemen, such champions need be under no fears from the advocate of so 'clumsy and blasphemous a thing' as the one you say we represent. JOHN TAYLOR." I must say that I considered the note too ungentlemanly, abusive, and insulting to be deserving of notice. I should have considered it and its authors worthy only of contempt, had I been in a place where I was known; as it was, I thought that men who could condescend to make such foul insinuations and base assertions, would not fail to impugn my motives, and circulate every species of falsehood that had been hatched up by their brethren in America. I might have objected to the form of the PUBLIC DISCUSSION. 3 document also, as I had scarcely any written rebutting testimony with me; but I had Brothers Bolton and Pack, both of whom knew Joseph as well as myself; therefore I thought it best to take it just as it was, and meet them on their own ground. I would here remark, however, that I do not consider an elder is responsible for anything but the doctrine that he preaches; if he himself be a virtuous man and preaches pure principles, what has he to do with the conduct of another? I judge him by his words and works. The eternal truths of heaven are independent of the conduct of any man. Two and two are four, whether I am a good man or not; three and five will never make seven, however good and virtuous the man who utters it. The Gospel that was taught by Jesus is true, whoever teaches it. The systems of men, which are contrary to the scriptures are not true, nor are they the Gospel, however pious and sanctimonious the men may be who teaches them. I would not, however, infer that wicked men teach good principles, for if the tree be good, the fruit will be good, but that truth is independent of the conduct of men. Men of vitiated tastes very often choose unwholesome food. Birds and beasts also live on that which accords with their natures: the sheep, the ox, and the dove feed on clean wholesome food; while the wolf, raven, and vulture are fond of carrion. As these gentlemen wished to handle filthy things, I thought I would humour them for once, but only think of the idea of three ministers associated with others, meeting in a debate, not to prove a doctrine false by the scriptures, which, as divines they ought to be well able to do, but which they did not attempt: but to try to prove a man's character to be bad, from newspaper stories and unauthenticated reports. What would become of Christianity with such a test? what of Catholicism, Protestantism, and every other "ism" associated with poor erring humanity? And if the scriptures are true that say, "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh," what must be the situation of that bosom which belches out such foul statements as those contained in the following debate. It reminds me of Isaiah's remark, "When the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come nigh us, for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves." Boulogue-sur-mer, July 11, 1850. Minutes of a Discussion held between the Revds. C. W. Cleeve, James Robertson, and Philip Cater, and Elder John Taylor, of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Taken by Curtis E. Bolton. Chairman. -- The Rev. K. Groves, M. A., Clergyman of the Church of England, assisted by Charles Townley, LL.D., and Mr. Luddy. First -- the following agreement, made by the parties, was read: -- Boulogne-sur-mer, July 6th, 1850. Minutes of a Meeting held at No. 15, Rue de la Lampe, between the Revds. C. W. Cleeve, James Robertson, and Philip Cater, on the one side, and Elders John Taylor, John Pack, Curtis E. Bolton, and William Howell, on the other side, to arrange for a public discussion to be held in this town; which discussion is to be conducted in the following manner: -- 2. -- That each party choose a Chairman, and they two select a third. 3. -- That the subject of discussion be as follows, viz. -- First, the late Joseph Smith: his public and pretended religious career. Second, the Book of Mormon: is it a revelation from God? Third, are the ministers of that people sent of God by direct appointment? 4. -- That Mr. Taylor will have the privilege of discussing the validity of the faith and calling of his opponents. 5. -- That the first meeting be held on Thursday evening, the 11th of July, at seven o'clock, to continue till ten p.m.; and be continued on from evening to evening, Sunday excepted. 6. -- That the sum of half a franc be charged for admittance; and that out of the proceeds the expenses of the discussion be first paid, and the surplus, if any, be equally divided, one half to be given to the Mayor, and the other half to the English Consul for the benefit of the poor. 4 PUBLIC DISCUSSION. 7. -- That should there be any deficiency, each side of this discussion make up an equal proportion to defray the same. JAMES ROBERTSON, JOHN PACK, PHlLIP CATER, CURTIS E. BOLTON, WILLIAM HOWELL. FIRST NIGHT'S DISCUSSION. Mr. Groves requested, for reasons that he would not explain, that each individual should engage for four or five minutes in quiet silent prayer.Chairman. -- It is unnecessary for me to make many remarks on the present occasion, but leave it for the parties engaged. Generally persons are chosen to grace the office but here the office must grace the person. I would particularly request the auditor to abstain from any mark of approbation or disapprobation. The Rev. C. W. Cleeve* then said, it became his task to take the initiative in this discussion, and in doing so he deprecated all acrimony or personality, and disavowed altogether any hostile feeling towards the persons, whom he and his friends had thought it right to call upon to prove their very extraordinary pretensions. He (Mr. C.) was strong opposed to public religious discussions, but there are occasions when we are seriously called upon to contend for the faith, and to unmask error and imposture -- there are occasions, when not to do this would be a gross dereliction of Christian duty. Such an occasion he conceived the present to be. He did not attack men, but a system -- a system that he declared to have not the slightest claim to be called a Christian sect. He and his opponents were not there to debate a difference, as persons believing a common Christianity. They were not there to dispute slight discrepancies in a common faith. Had his opponents preached the great doctrine of the Christian faith, as taken from the Bible, he and his friends would not have been there to oppose them; but they had cited Mr. Taylor and his friends, not as teachers of any form of Christianity, but as emissaries and advocates of the vilest imposture since the days of Mahomet. Such language would be unwarrantable towards any denomination of Christians; but, Christians his opponents were not -- they were advocates of an imposture by no means unimportant or unsuccessful; it was spreading amongst the uneducated in all directions -- it was numbering its victims by tens of thousands, and it became the duty of every one to expose its audacious and fatal errors. The first question of discussion is, Was Joseph Smith an impostor? for if he was, there was an end of Mormonism. Had Moses been an impostor, the Old Testament dispensation must have fallen to the ground. If the Redeemer had been an impostor, the gospel could not have been true; and by the same rule, if this person, Joseph Smith, was an impostor, the whole of this pretended system is a fraud. The Rev. gentleman then proceeded to read general extracts from a work by the Rev. Henry Caswell, General Bennett, and others, and an article from the English Review, charging Joseph Smith and the Mormonites with a number of crimes and immoralities. (We regret that we have been unable to obtain copies of these extract.) Elder Taylor, -- Gentlemen and Christian friends, I stand here as a stranger in your midst; I have travelled many thousands of miles for the purpose of coming to this land to preach the Gospel along with my brethren. Whatever may be the views of men in relation to our principles, all must accord that our being here on such a mission, so far from our families and homes, is evidence, at least, of our sincerity. I have listened to some strange remarks and infamous statements, made by the gentleman who has just sat down, the which, if the thousandth part were true, I should not have been here on this present occasion; and I think, that before I get through, I shall be able to shew that we are not such daring impostors, nor blasphemers -- that __________ * Lest I should be considered partial, I give the speeches of the opposing parties as reported from the Boulogne Interpreter, July 18. I was informed that they refused to let the Editor have those books. -- J. T. PUBLIC DISCUSSION. 5 we are not so corrupt, nor are we the immoral, degraded, and polluted wretches that the gentleman would represent us to be; but that our doctrine is as scriptural, that our conduct is as moral, and our lives as virtuous, as his or his friends, or that of any other people in the world; and let me remark, that such foul aspersions and bitter language would become other lips, and another profession than that of my Rev. friend. I do not wish to cherish in my bosom such bitterness nor wrath, nor to have such angry, vindictive, unbecoming words flow from my lips. These are certainly strange weapons for divines to combat error with. If a doctrine be false, why not prove it so by the Word of God, without having recourse to such subterfuges. "To the law and to the testimony," says Isaiah, "if they speak not according to that, it is because there is no truth in them." Neither do I consider that the foundation of eternal truth rests upon the character of any man, much less upon false reports, newspaper stories, and the unauthenticated statements of wicked and corrupt men. Mr. Cleeve stated that it gave him pain to have to meet me. I would remark that it was a pain that he might easily have dispensed with. I have not disturbed anybody in this place, nor interfered with Mr. Cleeve, or either of the other gentlemen. I had taken a hall, and was quietly lecturing in it, when Mr. Robertson came and wished to ask some questions. I told him that I would answer as many as he pleased at his house; but that I did not wish to have the meeting disturbed. Chairman. -- We do not wish any personal allusions. Elder Taylor. -- I think, sir, I am not out of the way. I think, with all deference, I have as much right to explain why I am here as my opponents. (Cries, "Go on! go on!") Chairman conceded. Elder Taylor. -- I did not court this discussion. I am here to answer to certain charges which these gentlemen have thought proper to bring against me and my doctrines. If they had not hatched up this concern, I should not have been here to-night. On the other hand, I will that, although I court not discussion, yet I never shrink, on proper occasions, from an investigation of those principles which I most assuredly believe. If these gentleman, or any one else, have any principles of truth that I do not possess, I will promise to embrace them. If, on the other hand, they will shew me that I am in error, I will promise to forsake it. I have heard a great deal said about Joseph Smith and his character. I was intimately acquainted with the late Joseph Smith, and know that the statements made by Mr. Cleeve are untrue. I have been with Mr. Smith for years; I have travelled with him; I have been with him in public and in private, at home and abroad; I was with him living, and when he died -- when he was murdered in Carthage jail, and I can testify that he was a virtuous, moral, high-minded man -- a christian and a philanthropist. My brethren here, Messrs. Pack and Bolton, were also acquainted with him, and, if required, will certify to the same thing. In relation to the characters who made those statements, I happen to be acquainted with them, and know of the circumstances under which some of them were written. Concerning Mr. Caswell, I was at Nauvoo during the time of his visit. He came for the purpose of looking for evil. He was a wicked man, and associated with reprobates, mobocrats, and murderers. It is, I suppose, true that he was reverend gentleman; but it has been no uncommon thing with us to witness associations of this kind, nor for reverend gentlemen; so called, to be found leading on mobs to deeds of plunder and death. I saw Mr. Caswell in the printing office at Nauvoo; he had with him an old manuscript, and professed to be anxious to know what it was. I looked at it, and told him that I believed it was a Greek manuscript. In his book, he states that it was a Greek Psalter; but that none of the Mormons told him what it was. Herein is a falsehood, for I told him. Yet these are the men and books that we are to have our evidence from. Concerning Mr. Turner, of Jacksonville college, Illinois, we have had his opinion; but what has opinion to do with truth? It was the opinion of men, in every age of the world, that the prophets were imposters, and they killed them because of their belief. They were whipped, tried, tempted, torn asunder, wandered about in sheep skins, &c. And why? Because it was the opinion of the people that they were wicked -- and the opinion, generally, of the most learned and pious. Hence, the Jews killed their prophets, beheaded John the Baptist, crucified the Messiah, and persecuted his Apostles; and the Chief Priests, 6 PUBLIC DISCUSSION. Rabbis and Doctors were foremost. Respecting John C. Bennett; I was well acquainted with him. At one time he was a good man, but fell into adultery, and was cut off from the church for his iniquity; and so bad was his conduct, that he was also expelled the Municipal Court, of which he was a member. He then went lecturing through the country, and commenced writing pamphlets for the sake of making money, charging so much for admittance to his lectures, and selling his slanders. His remarks, however, were so bad, and his statements so obscene and disgraceful, that respectable people were disgusted. These infamous lies and obscene stories, however, have been found very palatable to a certain class of society, and in times of our persecutions multitudes were pleased with them. Hence, not only did it suit the inclination of these gentlemen above alluded to, but preying upon the cupidity of the uninformed, they made a very lucrative business of their disgusting traffic, and sold it to the world garnished with the names of Doctor Bennett, the Rev. Mr. Turner, the Rev. Mr. Caswell, and numbers of other reverends, associates of blacklegs and murderers. Hence we have awful disclosures! terrible iniquity! horrid blasphemy! ornamented and dressed off by the aforesaid reverends, and rewritten, republished, and circulated by their brethren in this country. (Mr. Cleeve, I could furnish you with thousands of such statements, if they are of any use to you.) I say now, as I said before, that reports have nothing to do with truth; and I will say moreover, that public opinion has very little to do with it. The testimony of Noah was just as true, although rejected by the Antedilavians, as that of Jonah when all the inhabitants of Nineveh repented in sackcloth and ashes. And Jesus's testimony was just as true, when they cried, "Crucify him! crucify him!" and he was just as pure and virtuous as he was when the people strewed branches in the way, and spread their garments for him to ride over, and cried "Hosannah! blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." And St. Paul's testimony was just as true, when he was stripped and imprisoned, as when the people of Lycaonia said, concerning him and Barnabas, "The Gods have come down to us in the likeness of men," and would have worshipped them. Truth has always been opposed by the children of men, it comes in contact with the corrupt hearts and wicked practices. The Prophets have always been persecuted; and why? because they dared to tell the word of the Lord to the people. Stephen, in speaking on the same subjects, says, "Which of the Prophets have not your forefathers killed who testified before of the coming of the Just One, of whom ye have been the betrayers and murderers? "But in this age," say the people, "we know they were wicked and we would not have done that." So said the Jews to Jesus, and yet they crucified him. And he told them that while they killed the living Prophets, they would garnish the sepulchres of the dead -- "Woe unto you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because ye build the tombs of the Prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, and say, if we had been in the days of our fathers we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the Prophets." In these days, God has sent an Holy Angel, (as he before testified), "having the everlasting gospel to preach, to every nation, and kindred, and people, and tongue; crying, with a loud voice, fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come." The Lord has restored the Gospel as it existed in the Apostle's days. This Gospel does not agree with the systems of men, which are conflicting and various; and instead of acknowledging, as honest men, the truths contained in the Bible, which they profess to believe, but, in reality do not, they try to cover over their tottering systems and unscriptural theories, to wrap themselves in their cloak of self-righteousness, and cry, "the Temple of the Lord -- the Temple of the Lord -- the Temple of the Lord are we." And instead of meeting what they call error with the scriptures, and testing it with the touchstone of truth, like the persecutors of the Prophets, they substitute vituperation, scandal, persecution, and abuse; and as they know that error, cannot combat the truth, they tread in the steps of their venerable predecessors, the Pharisees, who called Jesus an impostor; and that he cast out devils through Beelzebub, the prince of devils; declared that he was born of fornication, and accused him of blasphemy. So the same kind of persons, in these days, in the absence of truth, seek to undermine the character of a good, honourable, and virtuous man. Hence, we hear the hue-and-cry of false prophet, impostor, deceiver, blasphemer, adulterer, daring imposters, &c. Ministers in America join with the drunkard, profligate, and murderer, to PUBLIC DISCUSSION. 7 hitch up stories against the Saints, and we have an importation to this country, circulated by pious people, revised and reprinted by ministers for the same purpose. Gentlemen, men of your calling ought to use other weapons. What do you gain by this system? All honorable men are ashamed of it, and it does not prove your doctrines true. Suppose Joseph Smith was all you represent him to be, your systems are still as unscriptural; and the next thing you will have to do will be to prove the scriptures false, if you would sustain them. The eternal truths of God are still the same; and whether Joseph Smith was a good or a bad man, the truths we preach are scriptural, and you cannot gainsay them; and if they are, what avails your attack upon character? Your soporiferous draughts may lull the people to sleep for a while, but truth will roll forth; the honest in heart will be aroused from their slumber; the purposes of God will roll forth; the kingdom of God will be established, and in spite of your puny efforts, truth will stand proud and erect, unsullied and uncontaminated by the pestiferous breath of calumniating mortals, and no power can stay its progress. Mr. Robertson (Independent Minister, I suppose,) considered it proper to account for his present position. He had heard of the bold and audacious pretensions of these so-called Latter-day Saints, for the meeting must know, that of the persons challenged, one is no less than an Apostle of Jesus Christ, claiming authority equal with that of St. Peter and St. Paul, and the rest are High priests. Chairman. -- It is not proper to read a speech. Mr. Robertson. -- I think I have a right. I don't see what difference it can make. Chairman (to Mr. Taylor). -- Do you allow it? Elder Taylor. -- I consider it improper, sir. Chairman. -- I certainly do. We are not met to hear speeches read, but to discuss certain principles, and reading is not discussion. Mr. Robertson nevertheless continued to read most of his speech. -- He said he was a stranger in Boulogne, as well his opponents, and his heart warmed to them when he thought how far they come to propagate their opinions of religion -- from the Great Salt Lake, in the far west of America; but when he remembered that they acknowledged as their head the impostor J. Smith, jun., and that their mission was to disseminate his imposture, he felt that duty required that they should be fully exposed, and that no false delicacy should be used as regarded them. He and his friends had quoted against the testimony of General Bennett and Professor Caswell, and of works published in America, in 1848. These works had testified that Joseph Smith kept up a seraglio of "Sisters of the White Veil," and "Sisters of the Green Veil;" and that Sidney Rigdon, who had at one time been almost as great a man among the Mormonites as Joe Smith, had quarreled with Joe for the latter's attempt to introduce his, Rigdon's daughter, into the sisterhood. Was there not a body of men amongst the Mormonites called "Danites," or "Destroying Angels," who were banded together to assassinate such as were supposed to be enemies of the body? and had not the existence of these men caused the hostility of the Americans to the Mormonite body? had not Governor Boggs been assassinated by this body, or some of them? Now could any of the Mormonites quote in their favour any works of equal authority to those which he (Mr. Robertson and his friends) had produced? It had been said they attempted to limit the power of God, in denying the most daring and blasphemous pretensions of Joseph Smith. It was not true. They did not come here to limit the power of God. God forbid. But they denied that God had revealed anything to Joseph Smith, and they had come here to denounce Joseph Smith as an impostor, on evidence that would satisfy the most expansive-minded jury. Now he (Mr. Robertson) demanded distinctly of Mr. Taylor what was the nature of the sisterhood of the White and Green Veil -- what was the nature of the dispute between Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith -- and what was the nature of the society called "Danites" or "Destroying Angels." He (Mr. Robertson) could easily understand the reserve of Mr. Caswell's conversation when he met with Mr. Taylor. How did he know that Mr. Taylor was not a destroying angel? (Laughter.) Elder Taylor. -- It would seem from the remarks of Mr. Robertson, that he also attaches very great importance to the statement, of Mr. Caswell and John C. Bennett, of course, for want of better testimony. I have already referred to their characters, 8 PUBLIC DISCUSSION. I have already stated that I proved Mr. Caswell to have told one lie, and a man that will tell one falsehood to injure an innocent people, will tell five hundred, if necessary, for the same object. I have also spoken of John C. Bennett's character; perhaps these gentlemen suppose that great importance is to be attached to Mr. Caswell's statement, because he is a reverend gentleman; but reverend gentlemen can tell falsehoods, when it answers their purpose, as well as others. I will presently show some of their proceedings. We have had a terrible account about the murder of Governor Boggs, I suppose given by the Rev. Mr. Caswell. Ex-governor Boggs is now living in California, at the gold mines. (Laughter.) But I suppose he must be dead, because a reverend gentleman said so. Mr. Robertson has told us of a certain editor, who was afraid to pollute his paper with remarks made by some of the gentlemen before referred to. It certainly would have been more to the credit of the persons concerned, notwithstanding they had no regard for the truth, if they had had a little more regard for delicacy; and with all due deference, I must say, that men of the profession and calling of my opponents, would have displayed a little more taste, if they had possessed a little more of that delicacy of feeling which actuated the editor. We are accused here of polygamy, and actions the most indelicate, obscene, and disgusting, such that none but a corrupt and depraved heart could have contrived. These things are too outrageous to admit of belief; therefore leaving the sisters of the "White Veil," the "Black Veil," and all the other veils, with those gentlemen to dispose of, together with their authors, as they think best, I shall content myself by reading our views of chastity and marriage, from a work published by us, containing some of the articles of our Faith. "Doctrine and Covenants," page 330. "1. According to the custom of all civilised nations, marriage is regulated by laws and ceremonies; therefore we believe that all marriages in this Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day Saints, should be solemnized in a public meeting, or feast, prepared for that purpose; and that the solemnization should be performed by a presiding High Priest, High Priest, Bishop, Elder, or Priest, not even prohibiting those persons who are desirous to get married, of being married by other authority. We believe that it is not right to prohibit members of this church from marrying out of the church, if it be their determination so to do, but such persons will be considered weak in the faith of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. "2. Marriage should be celebrated with prayer and thanksgiving; and at the solemnization, the persons to be married, standing together, the man on the right, and the woman on the left, shall be addressed by the person officiating, as he shall be directed by the Holy Spirit; and if there be no legal objections, he shall say, calling each by their names, "You both mutually agree to be each other's companion, husband and wife, observing the legal rights belonging to this condition; that is, keeping ourselves wholly for each other, and from all others during your lives." And when they shall have answered "Yes," he shall pronounce them husband and wife, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by virtue of the laws of the country, and authority vested in him. 'May God add his blessing, and keep you to fulfil your covenant from henceforth, and for ever. Amen.' "3. The Clerk of every Church should keep a record of the marriages solemnized in his branch. "4. All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this Church should be held sacred and fulfilled. Inasmuch as this Church of Jesus Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. It is not right to persuade a woman to be baptized contrary to the will of her husband; neither is it lawful to influence her to leave her husband. All children are bound by law to obey their parents; and to influence them to embrace any religious faith, or be baptized, or leave their parents without their consent, is unlawful and unjust. We believe that husbands, parents, and masters, who exercise control over their wives, children, and servants, and prevent them from embracing the truth, will have to answer for that sin." Mr. Robertson talks about our bold and audacious pretensions. I may be a little PUBLIC DISCUSSION. 9 out of order in speaking on this subject, but I am following the remarks made by my opponents, and the thing must rest with them. They bring certain charges against me; and I, of course, am bound to reply. Now what are our pretensions? We claim that God has restored the same Gospel as that which existed in the Apostles' days; that he has given a revelation which precisely agrees in doctrine, ordinances, and principles with that which Jesus taught, and his Apostles administered in; that he has restored Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers; that we are told to call upon men to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, to repent of their sins, and to be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of their sins, and that they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, by laying on of the hands; that the Holy Ghost produces the same effects now as formerly; brings things past to the remembrance; leads into all truth, and shows things to come; that if any are sick they are to call for the Elders, who are to anoint them with oil, in the name of the Lord; pray for them, and the Lord shall raise them up. Are these extraordinary pretensions? Did not the Lord formerly place in His church Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, and Pastors? Did they not baptize for the remission of sins, and lay on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost? Did not these signs follow those who believed? And did not Jesus say, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature; he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; and he that believeth not shall be damned?" and that "these signs shall follow them that believe, in my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues: if they drink any deadly thing it shall not harm them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." -- Now, I ask, where was the Gospel to be preached? To ALL the world. What was to follow the preaching or believing of the Gospel? -- these signs. Is it extraordinary, then, that we are believers in the Bible? or, I will leave it for the people to judge, whether it be not more extraordinary, that those gentlemen who are professed minister of the Gospel should disbelieve it? Do these gentlemen mean to tell us that we are not to believe the Bible, and that the Scriptures are not the test? He finds fault also with a priesthood. Did God ever have an acknowledged ministry on the earth who were not called and sent by Him? Had He ever a servant who was not called and qualified by Him? Who spake to Abraham, -- conversed with Enoch, -- directed Noah, -- called Moses, -- revealed his will to Joshua, -- gave the word of the Lord to Samuel? Did any of these men go without directions, or teach without being sent of God? The Prophets came with the word of the Lord. The word of the Lord was as fire in their bones. Jesus came not to do his own will, but his Father's who sent him. He called the Apostles and ordained them. Timothy was set apart by prophecy, and by laying on of hands; and St. Paul tells us that "No man taketh this honour upon himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron." One of my opponents professes to have a priesthood, the other two seem to care very little about it, and would acknowledge themselves as belonging to a class that St. Paul speaks of who should "after their own lusts heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and they should turn away their ears from the truth, and should be turned unto fables." If they have no priesthood, and are not sent of God, they must be made by men. We are again very soberly told about "Danites," and "Destroying Angels." I never happened to be acquainted with any of those among the Latter-day Saints, but I can give him an account of some that I met with, the which, for the honor of humanity, and that of the profession of my friends, I could wish I were not forced into. We have heard about the statement of ministers, I shall now be necessitated to tell some of their acts. I was going with my family to Far West, in the State of Missouri, and while staying at a place called DeWitt, on the banks of the Missouri River, a mob of about 150 persons came, led on by two ministers, the one a Presbyterian, the other a Baptist; the name of the one was Sashiel Woods, the other Abbot Hancock, they lived in Carrolton, Carrol County, Missouri. They came there with swords by their sides; their object was to drive off men, women, and children, from their own homes that they had purchased and paid for. After menacing the people for some time, they passed resolutions, that if the Latter-day Saints did not leave there in ten days, they would destroy every man, woman, and child, burn their houses, and throw their goods into the Missouri River. These resolutions were drawn up by these ministers of mercy. These and other ministers, one a Methodist, of the name of (Samuel) Bogard, engaged 10 PUBLIC DISCUSSION. with a mob in driving about 15,000 men, women, and children, from their homes, in the depth of winter, after robbing and killing many in the most barbarous manner. I have seen hundreds thus driven, with no other covering than a blanket or a sheet stuck upon poles, to screen them from the inclemency of the weather; people that had been in comfortable homes, and good circumstances, rendered houseless and homeless by the inhumanity of these wretches. Many of them died in consequence of their exposure, others were imprisoned, some of their brethren killed, and their flesh brought to them to feed on. These deeds were principally instigated by ministers. These, gentlemen, are the destroying angels if you wish to know about them. Is it difficult for such men to write books, such as we have heard, to cover their infamy and deeds of darkness? Who but depraved men could write such books? And is it difficult to attach the name of Rev.? This gives sanction, of course, to their statements, which are swallowed with avidity, and circulated by their brethren here. We are told that the Latter-day Saints were thieves, that they stole persons property. Why did not the law punish them if they were? Will these gentlemen tell me? Men that would rob, murder, and drive people from their homes, having the laws in their own hands, their own courts and judges, would certainly try those first. There are laws in America for punishing thieves, as well as here. These statements are too flimsy for intelligence to be blended with. We hear about Joseph Smith's crime, he was tried thirty-nine times before the tribunals of his county, and nothing proven against him. Why do not these gentlemen bring some legal authenticated testimony from those courts? Why did not the authors of these books do this? Because they could not. When Joseph Smith was among his enemies, on the ground where they could have proven these things, why did they not do it? I ask these gentlemen for some legal proof. It will go much further with me than the statements, opinions, and reports of their Rev. authors, and might shew from whence springs that bitter, acrimonious spirit, which has been manifested by my opponents? The Rev. Mr. Cater disavowed all notion of religious persecution, but thought that discussion a necessary one, though he greatly feared a bad use might be made of it, in the leading astray of sincere enquirers; but it was the duty of all to pray fervently and sincerely, that they might not be given over to imposture. What proof had they had of Joseph Smith being a prophet, or being otherwise than what he was -- an impostor -- a gross impostor. But before he went farther he had a question to put to Mr. Taylor. Orson Pratt, a person of authority amongst the Mormonites, has declared in a public tract, that since 1832, belief in the Divine Mission of Joseph Smith is absolutely necessary to salvation, and that those who do not believe in Joseph Smith cannot be saved. Mr. Taylor published a manifesto in the Boulogne Interpreter, and why did he conceal this doctrine? Mr. Taylor either believes it or not, why did he not state it? Joseph Smith declared that Peter, James, and John, came down from Heaven to ordain him. Is that true? The facts about Joseph Smith were, that at school nothing could be made of him through idleness and stupidity. At length, when he grew up a little, he took to pretending to discover treasures, by means of a glass in the crown of his hat; and shortly after, he got so far as to have interviews with angels, and one of these angels told him to go to a certain part of America, and there he would find a young woman, and to carry her off and marry her. Now he (Mr. Cater) thought angels had something else to do than going about telling young men where they would find a young woman. (Laughter.) However, Joe carried off the young woman, stole her in fact from her parents. He came now to Joe's pretended discovery of the plates. Joe pretended that an angel directed him to a certain mound to dig for sacred plates on which a revelation was engraved. It appears that after several attempts Joseph Smith at length discovered a box, and in this box were the inspired plates. Now, it was important to remark this part of the story. In the first place, these plates said to be buried 1400 years, were fastened together with rings, in the form of a book, though every one knows that in that age writings were formed into the shape of scrolls. These plates were a few in number, about six inches long, and yet one half of them contained as much as the whole of the Old Testament. They profess to refer to Jewish history, and yet they are written in Egyptian hieroglyphics. They distinctly, though alleged to have been written 1400 years ago, refer to the mariner's compass. The person who wrote to Smith's dictation had PUBLIC DISCUSSION. 11 never seen the plates. Joseph Smith having talked to him from behind a screen; but where the Book of Mormon came from was not long a mystery, for the brother of one Solomon Spaulding, going to one of the meetings, recognized his late brother's work, a romance of ancient America, which has never been published, but of which the MS was lost. The widow of Solomon Spaulding testified to the same effect, and that charge has never been replied to, to this hour. But the great consideration is, that these persons pretend to add to, and supersede the Word of God. Now the Bible is the sheet-anchor of Christians, and it neither needs the Book of Mormon nor any other book, nor the assistance of Joe Smith nor any other Joe. The awful voice of prophecy has spoken for the last time, and the cause of inspiration is closed. Whatever is needed by the Christian for his guidance is there, and Mr. Cater could remind his opponents of the curse denounced by the Spirit of God against all who added to, or subtracted from that volume. Elder Taylor. -- I am prepared to answer all of these statements, and any charges that these gentlemen can bring. We have certainly heard a very strange declaration from our friend who has just sat down. He tells us the canon of scriptures is closed, and that we have all of the word of God that ever was written. I wonder where he studied his Bible; for certainly, if the Bible is true that he professes to believe in, we must assuredly have not got all by a great deal. We will go to your Bible, sir, and inquire. I read of a great many books, which I will quote for your information, and perhaps you will be able to tell us something about them. Will Mr. Cater tell me where is the Book of Wars of the Lord? (see Numbers xxi. 14) and also the Book of Jasher? (Josh. x. 13). I wish some information about the Book of the Statues of the Kings of Israel. (1 Sam. x. 25). And also the Book of Enoch. (Jude 14.) Perhaps he will tell us where the Book of Nathan the Prophet is, (1 Chron. xxix. 29); together with the Book of Gad the Seer, (1 Chron. xxix. 29), and the Book of Ahijah the Prophet, (2 Chron. ix. 29). I should like to know from him also where the Book of Iddo the Seer is? (2 Chron. ix. 29). I should like to know from him also Shemaiah the Prophet, (2 Chron. xii. 15); Book of Jehu, (2 Chron. xx, 34); Book of the Sayings of the Seers, (2 Chron. xxxiii. 19)? In the New Testament, the so-called, 1st Epistle of St. Paul to the Corinthians, he says, "I wrote to you in an epistle not to keep company with fornicators." (1 Cor. v. 9.) In his Epistle to the Ephesians, he mentions his writing before to them on a mystery (iii. 3.); also his Epistle to the Colossians, written from Laodicea, (Col. iv. 16). St. Luke says, "Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us." (St. Luke i. 1.) Where are those books, and the testimony of the rest of the Twelve, whose writings we have not. An Epistle of Jude. (Jude iii.) It is a pity that men who profess to be teachers should be so egregiously ignorant of the scriptures which we have. Here are sixteen books mentioned, some of which contain doctrines, prophecies, and visions of the greatest importance to the human family, written by prophets, seers, and revelators, under the immediate inspiration of the Almighty, and yet we have them not. Where are they, Mr. Cater? Yet this gentleman calls us impostors because we do not stick to the Bible. He again quotes the sayings of John in the Revelations, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book. From this, then, he infers that we are to have no more revelation; but why does he come to this conclusion? St. John does not say that God will not reveal himself any more; he says if any man shall add to, or take from the words of the prophecy of this book, to him shall be added these plagues, etc. Now there is a very material difference between a man's adding, and God's adding. I should say that any man would be cursed for adding to any one of the words of God. What is this book? "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things that must shortly come to pass, and he sent and signified it by his angel, unto his servant John." (Rev. i. 1) It is, then, the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and not of man. It is concerning things which should 12 PUBLIC DISCUSSION. shortly come to pass, many of which things could not come to pass without more revelation, and this book is particularly alluded to. Well, but as this book is at the end of the Bible, and this passage at the end of the book, may it not be applied in that way, and signify that we are to have no more revelation? No! None but the ignorant could suppose so. That book was not compiled with the others till hundreds of years after, and how could it refer to those of which it had not yet become a part? And if God had spoken, or shewn visions, to any of the rest of his servants, it would have been just as much the word of the Lord, as that of St. John's and writing it would not have made it false; and St. John would have been in just as much danger of adding to their words, as they would in adding to his, according to Mr. Cater's theory; but if both were the word of the Lord, they ought both to be believed, received and practiced. Again, St. John speaks of prophets himself, who shall prophesy three years and a half. If they do, it will be the word of God, and as true as St. John's Revelation, and if they do not, St. John's statement is not true. Again, Moses says, (Deut. iv. 3.) "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it." And yet we have all the prophets' and apostles' writings since then. Are we to reject all the prophecies because Moses said, "ye shall not add unto the word which I command you?" According to Mr. Cater's theory, St. John himself would come under a curse; but, permit me to explain a little for him. Moses says, (Deut. xii. 32.) "What thing soever I command you to observe, to do it; thou shalt not add thereunto nor diminish from it." It is very evident, then, that God did not say, that He never would speak; but that man was not to add unto His word. Another thing is also evident, that it is folly for men who are so little acquainted with the word of God, to find fault with things of which they manifest such ignorance. Mr. Cater has found another difficulty, which is, that in one place an angel is said to have ordained Joseph Smith, and in another that Peter, James, and John, came to him. Now Joseph had several visits and ministrations. But the difficulty with Mr. Cater seems to be, that Peter, James, or John, could not be angels. I must instruct him, however, a little, on this point also. There was a certain individual spoken of in the Bible, called Moses, he was a servant of God, a Prophet; there was also another called Elijah; they died, or were translated. When Jesus was upon the earth, he went on to a mountain with Peter, James, and John, there appeared two glorious personages, angels; Peter was enraptured, and said, "Let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, one for Moses, and one for Elias." For who? For Moses and Elias. Here then were Moses and Elias, who had both lived on the earth, came to minister to Jesus, Peter, James, and John. Mr. Cater, I suppose, would think they had done wrong, but nevertheless they came. Again, when St. John was on the isle of Patmos, a glorious personage, an angel, revealed to him many great and glorious things. St. John was about to fall down and worship him; but the angel said, "See thou do it not; for I am of thy fellow-servants, the prophets, and of those that keep the testimony of Jesus, and the word of God; worship God." Who was it that came? One of St. John's fellow-servants, a prophet, a man who had endured affliction, sorrow, and tribulation in his day; perhaps stoned or sawn asunder for his testimony; but now he had gained the conquest, obtained the prize, basked in the beams of eternal intelligence, and came to minister unto, and comfort St. John in his lonely situation. We are next told very seriously that Joseph Smith stole his wife!! This, certainly is an awful crime!! Mrs. Smith was about twenty years of age when she was married. In America, ladies are of age at eighteen. I wonder if the lady had any hand in the theft. If this is stealing, I stole my wife! We have, following this, a number of ridiculous, false statements, or rather stories, which, when he attempts to bring forth proof, I shall answer; until then, I consider them beneath my notice. I have not come here to answer nor to reply to stories. Somebody has heard another say, that they were informed that a gentleman, whom their neighbor knew, was acquainted with a lady who had a cousin, who heard it reported that there were a number of stories about the plates, Book of Mormon, etc. And I am expected to answer to this nonsense? Gentlemen, it is too ridiculous; and, upon the whole, I would remark, that the gentlemen are now, or PUBLIC DISCUSSION. 13 ought to be, examining the character of Joseph Smith. When they take up the subject of the Book of Mormon, I am prepared to go into that subject with them, but I wish not to confound the two together. He asks me if I believe that people will be damned if they do not believe Joseph Smith's words. If I did not believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet, I should not have been here. If he was a true prophet, and spake the word of the Lord, that is just as binding on the human family as any other word spoken by any other prophet. The scriptures tell us that "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." As my time, however, is nearly closed, I would just remark, that it is strange that so ignorant a man, as Mr. Cater represents Joseph Smith to be, should be enabled by sheer cunning to get up a book that Mr. Cater cannot gainsay, nor prove anything unscriptural in, nor all the divines of this age, although many have tried. It is also strange that he should invent a delusion that should introduce the fullness of the gospel as it existed in former days, when all the theologians of this age, with all their literary attainments, cannot produce a correct system. I am at the defiance of these gentlemen, or the world, to prove from the scriptures an incorrect doctrine in it; yet it was this so-called ignorant man who revealed it. Why do these gentlemen not try it? Mr. Smith is called a wicked man. Can an impure fountain send forth pure streams? or a bad tree bring forth good fruit? Gentlemen, I again say that Joseph Smith was a virtuous, high-minded, honorable man, a gentleman and a christian; but he introduced principles which strike at the root of the corrupt systems of men. This necessarily comes in contact with their prepossessions, prejudices, and interests; and as they cannot overturn his principles, they attack his character; and that is one reason why we have so many books written against his character, without touching his principles, and also why we meet with so much opposition. But truth, eternal truth, is invulnerable; it cannot be destroyed, but like the throne of Jehovah, it will outride all the storms of men, and live forever. The Rev. Mr. Groves, in dismissing the meeting, took that occasion to say, that it was not his intentions either then or at any other time, to offer an opinion as to the failure or success of either of the opposing parties. He had been on the whole pleased with the tone and temper of the discussion, although necessarily in a debate involving the personal character of an individual, language somewhat personal was liable to be used. For private reasons he could not consent to dismiss the meeting with prayer, but he might, as a minister known amongst them, earnestly desire each individual to pray sincerely that it might please the Almighty God to bless whatever might hate been said calculated for improvement, and to discharge from their minds whatever might have been erroneous or unchristian. SECOND NIGHT'S DISCUSSION. Mr. Cleeve resumed the discussion on the same subject as that of the previous night. Mr. Taylor had denied the testimony of the Rev. Henry Caswell. He (Mr. Cleeve) never expected him to have admitted it; but the meeting would judge of the weight to be attached to the testimony of Mr. Caswell, though denied by persons who were interested in advancing the system of Mormonism; for would the members of any fraternity, having interested purposes to answer, not testify in favour of their leader? Would not the Cato Street Conspirators all have maintained the high character and pure motives of Thistlewood? Suppose a system of religion were promulgated in England; claiming the attention which Mormonism demands itself, and suppose he (Mr. Cleeve) had joined it, would he go to America to preach it without proofs of any kind, and only assisted by the testimony of two or three of his confederates? The fact was, that Mr. Taylor had entirely failed in what he was found to do, viz., to clear the character of Joseph Smith; for if Smith's revelation was untrue, he was one of the most infamous impostors of whom history has made any mention. Had Smith the testimony of prophecy, and the testimony of miracles? Are the Mormonites the only true church, and is there anything more than the Bible necessary for the guidance of Christians?14 PUBLIC DISCUSSION. Elder Taylor. -- Ladies, gentlemen, and friends, it is with pleasure that I arise to answer for myself and my friends, to the charges, which these gentlemen, in the absence of any thing better, see proper still to urge. I would beg leave to remark, however, that there is a very material difference between asking and answering questions. If I had my books here I would give these gentlemen as much documentary evidence as they wish, and prove more about their respectable authors than their would be pleased to hear. As it is, I have testimony that would be received before any court in Europe, and, surely, Christian ministers ought to acknowledge such. But, before I proceed, I wish to answer one or two of Mr. Cater's questions which I was prevented doing last night for want of time. Mr. Cater made himself very merry last night, at the idea of the "Urim and Thummim," which he called, "peeping through two pieces of stone in a hat." I will quote from a letter from Parley P. Pratt: -- "with the records were found a curious instrument, called by the ancients the Urim and Thummin, which consisted of two transparent stones, clear as crystal, set in the two rims of a bow? this was in use in ancient times by persons called seers. It was an instrument, by the use of which they received revelations of things distant, of things past, or future."* We will now see what the scriptures say about it -- "And thou shall put in the breastplate of judgment, the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart when he goeth in before the Lord." Exodus, xxviii. 30. "Also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim." Lev. xiii. 8. "And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets" 1 Sam. xxviii. 6. The Urim and Thummim were afterwards lost, and it would seem from the situation of the children of Israel, on their return from the Babylonish captivity, in numbering the priests, that some of them had lost the records of their genealogy, therefore were they as polluted and put from the priesthood, and the Tirshatha said unto them that they should not eat of the most holy things till there stood up a priest having the Urim and Thummim. Ezra, ii. 62, 63. Here, then, was a thing of great importance, one of the most sacred things amongst ancient Israel, a thing that was lost, but which again was to be found; an instrument through which God's ancient seers received his will. Yet this most sacred thing is made a mock of by a professed minister. Chairman. -- Mr. Cater did not make a mock of the Urim and Thummim. Mr. Cater. -- I did not. Elder Taylor. -- I could not understand it in any other light. Chairman. -- It was the stones that Joseph Smith looked through, and not the Urim and the Thummim. Elder Taylor. -- If he had quoted fairly as an honest man, the above would have been the statement. If not, then I say, he is misquoting, and stating falsehoods. If the book he quotes from be false, he is the advocate of liars and the mimic of buffoons. If I was to misquote the passages of scripture concerning the Urim and Thummim, and say that Saul or David peeped through two pieces of stone, and then make a laughing stock of, I should say that I was making merry with sacred things, and consider myself a buffoon. Mr. Cater informs us that the Book of Mormon tells us about the "mariner's compass," and then goes on to state, that the mariner's compass was not known for hundreds of years afterwards. I wish he had given us the quotation. I will quote from the Book of Mormon: -- "And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld, upon the ground, a round ball, of curious workmanship, and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles, and the one pointed the way whither we should into the wilderness."† Was this a "mariner's compass?" Is a mariner's compass a "round ball?" Again, this ball "pointed the way they should go." Does a mariner's compass point so, Mr. Cater? or to the north? Here we have another of Mr. Cater's perversions. Again, a mariner's compass was invented by man, this by the Lord. I wonder if the Lord is not as able to do this as he is to write with his fingers on stone, divide the waters of the sea, or guide a people by a pillar of cloud, and of fire. Mr. Cater, however, does not seem to understand __________ * See "Remarkable Visions," by Orson Pratt. † See "Book of Mormon," p. xxxiii., Second European Edition. PUBLIC DISCUSSION. 15 all about the mariner's compass; he tells us that it was invented in the fourteenth century. Gilbert, in Libro de Magnette, affirms that Paulus Venctus brought it first into Italy, in the year 1268, having learned it from the Chinese; and Ludi Vertomanus affirms, that when he was in the East Indies, about the year 1500, he saw a pilot of a ship direct his course by a compass, fastened and formed similar to those now useful. And, Mr. Barlow says,* that "in a personal conference with two East Indians, they affirmed; that instead of our compass they used a magnetic needle, of six inches and longer, upon a pin, in a dish of white China earth filled with water, in the bottom whereof they had two cross lines for the principal winds; the rest of the divisions being left to the skill of their pilots." But independent of any of these things, the God of Israel is as able to reveal anything to the people on the continent of America, as he is to those on the continent of Asia. So much, then, for Mr. Cater and his remarks. I now turn to Mr. Cleeve. In attempting to reply to this gentleman I find myself laboring under considerable difficulty, for I have nothing to reply to. I have heard nothing but a repetition of the same trash that he advanced before. He has brought no authenticated testimony against Joseph Smith, we have a few newspaper stories, and unauthenticated documents, and the gentleman thinks they are argument and testimony, and says I have not answered them. The congregation, I suppose, will be judge of this. I never expected that these gentlemen would give up their filthy authors, they are all they have to cling to. I will, however, touch briefly on the gentleman's remarks. Mr. Cleeve says, that I stated, that "because Joseph Smith was persecuted he must therefore be a good man." I never made such a declaration. I stated that the Apostles were good men, and yet were persecuted, that the Prophets were considered deceivers, and put to death as such. That Jesus was called a deceiver, a devil, a blasphemer, and a corrupt man, although he was the Son of God; and the false statements of my opponents did not prove Joseph Smith to be a bad man, any more than the statement of the Jews proved Jesus to be wicked. Why are my words misrepresented? Mr. Cleeve tells us that Jesus was well spoken of by his enemies. I wish he would show us where; for I must confess myself ignorant in this particular. Who is it that gives us his history? His Apostles. Were they his enemies. He refers us to Pilate. Was Pilate his enemy? This is the first time that I have heard him called so. Pilate was a Roman judge. He had to judge according to testimony. The Jews had sworn falsely against Jesus, and told Pilate, when he would have let him go, that if he did he was not Caesar's friend. He then washed his hands, and said, that he was clear from the blood of this just man. Is this the conduct of an enemy? Jesus's enemies testified the same about him that Joseph Smith's have about him. Now, who was it that testified evil about Jesus? I think the persons were quite as respectable as Caswell, or John C. Bennett. They were people that made long prayers, that fasted, and were very devout; paid tithes of all they possessed; teachers of the law; chief priests, scribes and pharisees -- the respectable, the learned, the devout, the pious, the priests, and the people. And will Mr. Cleeve account Jesus as an impostor, because of this respectable array of testimony? St. Paul was not only tried, but condemned to be whipped several times. Does Mr. Cleeve believe St. Paul to be a wicked man? Joseph Smith never was condemned by any court, although he was tried thirty-nine times by his enemies. Mr. Cleeve makes some remarks about testimony. He speaks of a kind that he thinks I ought to bring documents to be accredited, as if it ever necessary for us to bring replies to all the trash ever published against us. Now what testimony had St. Paul when he preached at Athens, at Rome, or at Antioch? He said that he had seen a vision, the people, of course, could believe him or not, as they thought proper. The wicked Jews were sent after him and his colleagues to testify evil. How could he rebut it? Where were his documents? The Jews could state that he had been found guilty in several places, and whipped and imprisoned. Could he deny it? Assuredly not. They could testify that Jesus, whom he preached, was crucified, as a blasphemer and an imposter, by the Jews, his own people. Could he say that this was not a legal decision? It seems to me that these gentlemen have never studied their Bibles, or they would have known more about such things; they __________ * "Navigator's Supply," Anno, 1597. 16 PUBLIC DISCUSSION. must see that they are taking the same stand that the pharisees and chief priests did formerly. What did St. Paul and the other apostles say? "We are his witnesses, and so also is the Holy Ghost." So say we. St. Paul said, "I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." So say we. I have been imprisoned with my brethren, and shot in prison; but I am at the defiance of the world to prove any thing against my character, or that there was ever any immorality proven against me, or that I was ever found guilty or condemned. And I bear witness that Joseph Smith was a good man, and that these statements brought by my opponents against him are false; and I bear witness that the power of God attends the ministration of this gospel. This is my testimony concerning Joseph Smith, my brethren will bear witness to the same thing. If my word be doubted, bring a magistrate here, and I will make an affidavit to it, and so will my brethren; here, then, is living testimony. We have heard from our opponents about testimony that would be received in a court. The testimony of three living witnesses against a criminal, if his crime was murder, would hang him. Chairman. -- Oh, no! oh, no! A Gentleman, (a barrister.) -- It would. Elder Taylor. -- I say, Mr. Chairman, that it would. Let three respectable men make affidavit before a court, that they had seen one man murder another, and if their testimony was unimpeached, the man would be hung -- their testimony would be conclusive. Impeach us if you can. Now, I will speak a little about the position of my opponents. I suppose they are considered gentlemen here: their doctrines are believed, at least, by their several flocks, if they have any. The Bible is believed by all. Suppose we transplant them to Hindostan or China. What evidence would they have to present before the people? They present the scriptures, and tell the people that they are true. But how are we to know it, say the people. We tell you so. That is all very well; but we want some proof. Well, say you, they speak of Jesus coming to atone for the sins of the world. Yes; but the Jews tell us he was an impostor and a wicked man. But we believe him to be a good man, and the Son of God. Did you ever see him? No. Did you ever see anybody that had seen him? No. How do you know anything about him then? We believe him to be good. Who wrote this book? His Apostles. Oh, his particular friends! Yes. Did you ever see them? No. Did you ever see anybody that had? No. Well, we do not put much confidence in your remarks; but we will read your book. Having read it, they say, oh, I perceive that certain signs are to follow them that believe -- the sick are to be healed, devils cast out, they are to speak in other tongues, have the gift of prophecy, &c. Do these signs follow you? Oh, no! But you say you are believers, and your Bible say these signs shall follow them that believe. Oh, they are done away and not necessary. But one of your Apostles says, "follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts." But they are not needed. Strange! Your Apostle, St. Paul, says "the eye cannot say to the ear, I have no need of thee, nor the head to the foot. I have no need of thee." But shall we not receive these gifts if we believe in Jesus, repent, and are baptized? No. Oh, you have a friend here, I see, who is also a Christian minister. Do you believe in the same book, sir? Yes. Do you believe in the same doctrine? No. But do you get yours from the same book? Yes! And does it teach you differently? We believe differently. But you have, we perceive, another friend here; is he also a minister? Yes. Which of your doctrines does he believe? Neither. Do you all believe the Bible? Yes. Do you believe it to be true or false? True. Does a true book teach three different ways? Those are our opinions. Oh, I thought you had come to teach truth; if opinions are all, we have plenty of them already, and can dispense with your services. Your Bible says, that the Gospel was to be preached to all the world, and these signs would follow the belief, and obedience to it. Do you live in the world? Yes. Then it must apply to you. I can have no confidence, gentlemen, in men who present me with a book, and call it the word of God, and then deny that word. I am afraid, sirs, your systems are systems of priestcraft. But the disciples formerly said, we are his witnesses, and also the Holy Ghost bears witness of him. They preached by the power of the Spirit, baptized for the remission of sins, and laid on hands for the PUBLIC DISCUSSION. 17 gift of the Holy Ghost; and then followed the signs; and the people had evidence among themselves. This, sirs, is the Gospel that we preach; and the same power attends it; it is going from nation to nation, from kingdom to kingdom; the power of God accompanies its administration; and it will continue to spread in spite of the puny efforts of man to retard its progress, until the honest in heart among all nations will rejoice in the fulness of the blessings of the gospel of peace. Mr. Robertson had been anxious to get something to answer, but he really and seriously could find nothing worthy of a reply. It was clear from the words of the challenge, that he and his friends could not prove a negative; but these men who had come all the way from the Great Salt Lake, in the far west of America, ought to prove their prophet spoke the truth, and that he had seen angels as he declared he had. He (Mr. Robertson) demanded of Mr. Taylor to declare distinctly what it was that satisfied him of the truth of the Book of Mormon. Did he ever see any miracles performed by Joseph Smith? and if so, what was the nature of the miracles he saw? Did Joseph Smith cast down his rod and make it a serpent? Did he do anything like the miracles of the loaves and fishes? Did Mr. Taylor ever see the plates that Joseph dug up by the angel's directions? and where were the plates now? He (Mr. Robertson) believed the conduct of the Missourians against the Mormonites to be infamous; but had not the conduct of the Mormonites, especially of the "Destroying Angels" or "Danites" much to do with it? Why did Sidney Rigdon and Joseph Smith differ? Was it not about Sidney Rigdon's daughter? Did not Joseph Smith prophesy that Zion was in Missouri, and that Zion must be re-conquered? Why were the Mormonites driven from Nauvoo? Elder Taylor -- I again arise with pleasure, but I am somewhat surprised to hear the remarks made by Mr. Robertson. He states that he cannot prove a negative, and that he is not bound to prove that Joseph Smith was a bad man. I understand that he challenged me -- that in that challenge he represents Joseph as a daring impostor. I know nothing of Mr. Smith but what is good; he ought to prove his assertions, or not make them. I am not the challenger; I am on the defence. Am I to be brought here to answer charges, and then become my own accuser? Let them bring forth evidence and I am prepared to rebut it. He asks me if I will tell him what convinced me, and upon what evidence I believed the Gospel. This I will do with pleasure. I was living in the city of Toronto, Upper Canada; I was associated with a number of gentlemen in searching the scriptures. Many of us were connected with the Methodist Society; we did not believe their doctrines because they did not accord with scripture. Nevertheless we did not interfere with them; we considered them as near correct as others; we rejected every man's word or writing, and took the Word of God alone; we had continued diligently at this for two years; we made it a rule to receive no doctrine until we could bring no scripture testimony against it. The gentlemen with whom I associated were, many of them, learned and intelligent. We gathered from the scriptures many important truths; we believed in the gathering of Israel, and in the restoration of the ten tribes; we believed that Jesus would come to reign personally on the earth; we gathered from the scriptures that just judgment would overtake the churches of the world, because of their iniquity. We believed that the Gospel which was preached by the apostles was true, and that any departure from that was a departure from the order of God, and that churches having thus departed were consequently corrupt and fallen. We believed that there ought to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers as in former days, and that the gifts of healing and the power of God ought to be associated with the church. We, of course, believed that where these things did not exist there could not be a true church; but we believed that we had no authority ourselves to teach these principles; we were praying men, and asked our Heavenly Father to shew us the truth, and we fasted and prayed, that if God had a true church on the earth he would send us a messenger. About this time Parley P. Pratt called on me with a letter of introduction from a merchant of my acquaintance. I had peculiar feelings on seeing him. I had heard a great many stories of a similar kind to those that you have heard, and I must say that I thought my friend had imposed upon me a little in sending a man of this persuasion to me. I, however, received him courteously as I was bound to do. I told him, however, plainly, my feelings, and that in our researches I wanted no fables; I wished him to confine 18 PUBLIC DISCUSSION. himself to the scriptures. We talked for three hours or upwards, and he bound me as close to the scriptures as I desired, proving everything he said therefrom. I afterwards wrote down eight sermons that he preached in order that I might compare them with the word of God. I found nothing contrary. I then examined the Book of Mormon, and the prophecies concerning that; that was also correct. I then read the book of "Doctrine and Covenants", found nothing unscriptural there. He called upon us to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins, and we should receive the Holy Ghost. But what is that? we inquired; the same, he answered, as it was in the Apostles' days, or nothing. A number of others and myself were baptized, and we realized those blessings according to his word; the gifts and power of God were in the church, the gift of tongues and prophecy; the sick were healed, and we rejoiced in the blessings and gifts of the Holy Ghost. Mr. Robertson. -- What made you believe in the Book of Mormon? Elder Taylor. -- First, it's agreement with the scripture; secondly, the testimony in the scripture concerning it; and thirdly, the testimony of other witnesses which I will read. Mr. Taylor then read the testimony of three witnesses. -- "Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people unto whom this work shall come, that we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken; and we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shewn unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon: and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true; and it is marvellous in our eyes, nevertheless the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garment of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honour be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen." "DAVID WHITMER, "MARTIN HARRIS." "Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people unto whom this work shall come, that Joseph Smith, jun., the translator of this work, has shewn unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated, we did handle with our hands, and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shewn unto us; for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world to witness unto the world that which we have seen; and we lie not, God bearing witness of it." "JACOB WHITMER, "JOSEPH SMITH, Sen. "PETER WHITMER, Jun. "HYRUM SMITH, "JOHN WHITMER, "SAMUEL H. SMITH." PUBLIC DISCUSSION. 19 coming forth of this work, as they do about the first coming of the Messiah, or any other subject. Mr. Robertson. -- Did you see miracles before you were baptized? Elder Taylor. -- I did not then, any more than I do now, consider that truth depended upon miracles; but that "these signs should follow them that believe." I do not believe that the truth of a prophet's testimony deals upon miracles. Jesus says, there never was a greater prophet than John, yet John did no miracle; nevertheless the people were bound to believe him. What miracles did Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, Habakuk, or Ezekiel do? Yet they were prophets, and the people were bound to listen to their words, or be condemned for rejecting them. But I do believe, connected with the Gospel, that these signs shall follow the belief of and obedience to it, and that if they do not, it is not the Gospel that is preached, but the systems of men. Mr. Robertson then put the following questions to Mr. Taylor:-- Mr. Robertson. -- Do you know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet? Elder Taylor. -- Yes. Mr. Robertson. -- How do you know it? Elder Taylor. -- By revelation; the Lord revealed it to me; and I also know by the fulfillment of his words. Mr. Robertson. -- Will you tell us your vision or revelation? Elder Taylor. -- No! sir. Mr. Robertson. -- Have you seen miracles? Elder Taylor. -- Yes, scores of them! Mr. Robertson. -- Have you any testimony of such things? Elder Taylor. -- Yes, thousands of testimonies. I would here remark, that I do not consider miracles a test of truth, but as being associated with the gospel. But Mr. Bolten will read an instance from the Millennial Star. Bristol, Nov. 25, 1849. "Dear President Pratt. -- As you were so kind as to publish the letter I sent, dated July 9, 1849, containing an account of the miraculous power of God, displayed in the healing of Elizabeth Ann Bounsell, which made quite a stir amongst the pious christians in our city, I now venture to write to you again, and say that the above circumstance caused many to call at the house to see if it were true; and upon seeing, many rejoiced. Others mocked, saying, "she would have got well if the elders had not laid their hands upon her." Amongst the latter was one would-be great man, by the name of Charles Smith, (who has written a flimsy tract against the Latter-day Saints) who said it was not enough to satisfy him. So the mother took another of her daughters, and put her upon his knee, and said, 'sir, is that child blind?' And after he had examined her eyes, he said, 'she is.' 'Well,' said the mother, 'she was born blind, and she is now four years old; and I am going to take her to the elders of the church, for them to anoint her eyes with oil, and lay hands upon her; and you can call again when you have time, and see her with her eyes opened; for I know the Lord will heal her, and she will see.' 'Well,' said he, 'if she does ever see, it will be a great proof.' Accordingly the mother brought the child to the elders, and Elder J. Hackwell anointed her eyes, and laid hands upon her only once; and the Lord heard his prayer, so that the child can now see with both of her eyes, as well as any other person. For which we all feel thankful to our Heavenly Father; and are willing to bear testimony of it to all the world.
"Yours, in the Kingdom of God,
"WILLIAM BOUNSELL, Elder Taylor. -- Here is the address of the parents of the child: any one who is dis-satisfied can write to them and obtain the information. Mr. Taylor then continued: -- When I commenced searching after truth l did not pursue the same course that you have done -- seek to impugn the motives and destroy the characters of individuals. I did not believe that truth was to be obtained by opposing it. I examined the doctrines 20 PUBLIC DISCUSSION. and compared them with the Word of God. I knew that none of the sects had the truth as contained in the Bible, and I did not believe that a false prophet could bring it. I did not believe "that an impure fountain could send forth pure streams." I had examined all these principles before, and the test which is given in the scriptures. Isaiah tells us, if false prophets or wizards come, to take another course with them than these gentlemen have taken. "To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to that, it is because there is no light in them." If these men have the truth, it is certainly very easy to detect error by the comparison. A man acquainted with coins, can easily detect a counterfeit; it is not necessary for him to find out the character of the man who made it; he compares the coin with the original, and if necessary analyzes it; the base metals is easily detected. I can very soon detect any false system by comparing it with the scriptures, but these gentlemen having so bungling a counterfeit themselves, of course, are not proper to judge, and do not understand the true test; they are afraid of the scriptures, because they destroy their own systems. We have had the testimony of men, who are ministers, full of calumny, vituperation and abuse. I will call upon Mr. Bolton to read the testimony of a gentleman, a traveller, the captain of a company, on his way to the gold mines, published in the New York Tribune, and afterwards copied into the New York Herald and from that to the Liverpool Mercury. His statement (although not immediately associated with Joseph Smith's character, is associated with the Church that he raised up,) shows that we are not such desperadoes, so corrupt nor depraved as these Reverend gentlemen try to make appear. -- Mr. Bolton here read the following extract:--
"THE MORMON VALLEY NEAR THE GREAT SALT LAKE, PUBLIC DISCUSSION. 21 on amid scenes like these, expecting every moment to come to some commercial centre, some business point in this great metropolis of the mountains, but we were disappointed. No hotel, sign-post, cake and beer shop, barber's pole, market-house, grocery, provision, dry good, or hardware store distinguished one part of the town from another; not even a bakery or mechanic's sign was anywhere discernible. Here, then, was something new; an entire people reduced to a level, and all living by their labour; all cultivating the earth, or following some branch of physical industry. At first I thought it was an experiment, an order of things established purposely to carry out the principles of Socialism or Mormonism. In short, it is very much like Owenism personified. However, on inquiry, I found that a combination of seemingly unavoidable circumstances, had produced this singular state of affairs. There were no hotels, because there had been no travel; no barber's shop, because every one chose to shave himself, and no one had time to shave his neighbour; no stores, because they had no goods to sell, nor time to traffic; no centre of business, because all were too busy to make a centre. There was an abundance of mechanic's shops, of dressmakers, milliners, tailors, &c.; but they needed no sign, nor had they time to paint or erect one, for they were crowded with business. Beside their several trades, all must cultivate the land or die, for the country was new, and no cultivation but their own within a thousand miles. Every one had his lot and built upon it, every one cultivated it, and perhaps a small farm in the distance. And the strangest of all was, that this great city, extending over several square miles, had been erected, and every house and fence made, within nine or ten months of the time of our arrival; while at the same time, good bridges were erected, over the principal streams, and the country settlements extended nearly a hundred miles up and down the valley. This territory, state, or, as some term it, 'Mormon Empire,' may justly be considered as one of the greatest prodigies of the age; and, in comparison with its age, the most gigantic of all republics in existence, being only its second year since the first seed of cultivation was planted, or the first civilized habitation commenced. If these people were such thieves and robbers, as their enemies represented them in the States, I must think they have greatly reformed in point of industry since coming to the mountains. I this day attended worship with them in the open air. Some thousands of well-dressed, intelligent-looking people assembled; some on foot, some in carriages, and some on horseback. Many were neatly, and even fashionably clad. The beauty and neatness of the ladies reminded me of some of our best congregations in New York, They had a choir of both sexes, who performed extremely well, accompanied by a band, who played well on almost every instrument of modern invention. Peals of the most sweet, sacred, and solemn music filed the air; after which, a solemn prayer was offered by the Rev. Mr. Grant (a Latter-Saint), of Philadelphia. Then followed various business advertisements read by the clerk. Among these I remember a call of the 17th ward, by its presiding bishop, to some business meeting; a call for a meeting of the 32nd Quorum of Seventy, and a meeting of the officers of the second cohort of the military legion, &c. &c. After this came a lengthy discourse from Mr. Brigham Young, president of the society, partaking somewhat of politics, much of religion and philosophy, and a little on the subject of gold, showing the wealth, strength, and glory of England, growing out of her coal mines, iron, and industry; and the weakness, corruption, and degradation of Spanish America, Spain, &c., growing out of her gold, silver; &c. and her idle habits. Every one seemed interested and pleased with his remarks, and all appeared to be contented to stay at home and pursue a persevering industry, although mountains of gold were near them. The able speaker painted in lively colours the ruin which would be brought upon the United States by gold, and boldly predicted that they would be overthrown because they had killed the prophets, stoned and rejected those who were sent to call them to repentance, and finally plundered and driven the church of the Saints from their midst, and burned and desolated their city and temples. He said, God had a reckoning with that people, and gold would be the instrument of their overthrow. The constitution and laws were good, in fact the best in the world, but the administrators were corrupt, and the laws and constitution were not carried out, therefore they must fall. He further observed, that the people here would petition to be organized into a territory under that same government, notwithstanding its abuses, and that, if granted they would stand by the constitution and laws of the United 22 PUBLIC DISCUSSION. States, while at the same time he denounced their corruption and abuses. But, said the speaker, we ask no odds of them, whether they grant our petition or not! We.never will ask any odds of a nation who has driven us from our homes. If they grant us our rights, well; if not, well; they can do no more than they have done. They and ourselves, and all men, are in the hands of the Great God, who will govern all things for good, and all will be right, and work together for good to them that serve God. Such, in part, was the discourse that we listened to in the strongholds of the mountains. The Mormons are not dead nor is their spirit broken. And if I mistake not there is a noble, daring, stern, and democratic spirit dwelling in their bosoms, which will people these mountains with a race of independent men, and influence the destiny of our country and the world for a hundred generations. In their religion they seem charitable, devoted, and sincere; in their politics, -- bold, daring, and determined; in their domestic circle quiet, affectionate, and happy; while in industry, skill, and intelligence, they have few equals, and no superiors on the earth. I had many strange feelings while contemplating this new civilization, growing up so suddenly in the wilderness. I almost wished I could awake from my golden dream and find it but a dream; while I pursued my domestic duties as quiet, as happy, and as contented, as this strange people." -- Liverpool Mercury. Mr. Cater was determined to keep his opponents to the subject. Joseph Smith saw no angel. It was no answer to Professor Caswell's exposure, to say good men were often slandered. If he (Mr. Cater) were brought before a magistrate, what sort of answer to the charge would it be to say, that the best of men had been calumniated? In his opinion it would be preferable to reply to the particular allegation, and if he did not he was in a fair way to go to gaol. It was too late to attack General Bennett's motives for joining the Mormonites, as it unfortunately happened that Joe Smith declared that he had a special revelation touching Bennett, and that Bennett was a person worthy of very great trust, and much honoured by the Almighty. If Bennett was a bad man, as Mr. Taylor described him, then Joe Smith's revelation was mistaken. But we had not had all Joe Smith's revelation, for Orson Pratt declared that Joe had a revelation, that all persons who, from 1832, refused to believe in his mission, would be damned for ever and ever. Why did not Mr. Taylor put this in his manifesto in the Boulogne Interpreter. He (Mr. Cater) had asked this before, but could get no answer. Another revelation told Joe to charge a dollar-and-a-half for the Book of Mormon, and again to charge a dollar for it. But the most unfortunate of all revelations was that about the plates. These plates were a mill-stone round the neck of that system, and the humbug about them must be its destruction. Joe, it seemed, had been acquitted, but many rogues and many thieves were often acquitted. He (Mr. Cater) denied utterly that he had ever said that we had in our Bible all that God chose to reveal of his word; we had all the information necessary for salvation, and had the lost books been thus necessary, we should have had them. He did, he confessed, not entertain much respect for the two pieces of glass which Joe Smith had in the crown of his hat, and by which he made a pretence of divination. One fallacy ran through this entire fabric of Mormonism. These people seemed to think that there ought to be a perpetual repetition, and mimickry of early christian events and ceremonies. They seemed to fancy that there was a perpetual necessity for repeating early events and rites; but, who dared to say that it was necessary to repeat the law, the crucifixion, and the gift of the Holy Ghost? Nor had the signs been always given, for Philetus was left by Paul at Miletum Dick, though by the system of the Mormonites he ought instantly to have been cured.* Dare these men attempt to show miracles? One of them, indeed, had told him (Mr. Cater) that he had a little servant girl who spoke Hebrew to a Jew through the gift of tongues, but unfortunately the Jew said there were two kinds of Hebrew, only one of which he understood, and the child spoke the kind he did not understand. (Loud laughter). There was a great deal of cunning in this Mormonism, and a great deal of ambition, the raising of a new society and community at the Great Salt Lake, in America; for the last thing required of the converts would be to go there. Elder Taylor. -- I was in hopes these gentlemen would have brought forth something __________ * The Reporters have erred here; Mr. Cater used no such argument. PUBLIC DISCUSSION. 23 tangible; but we have nothing but a few of the thoughts of other men, and a great many statements without any kind of evidence or testimony, which I find Mr. Cater is very prolific in. He tells us, that it is now "too late to attack Gen. Bennett's motives for joining the Church?" Did I ever attack Gen. Bennett's motive for joining the Church? This is one of your dreams, Mr. Cater, and resembles many more of them. I stated, concerning Gen. Bennett, that at one time he was a good man; but that he fell into iniquity, and was cut off from the church for adultery, and then commenced his persecutions. If I had my books here I could have shown an affidavit made before the city council, about the time he was cut off, stating that he knew nothing evil or bad of Joseph Smith. An affidavit that I heard him make myself. Mr. Cater tells us that "Joseph Smith saw no angel." Will he inform us how he came by this intelligence? Who asked him for his testimony on this subject? I knew before I commenced that neither he nor his friends professed to believe it; but to tell us positively that he saw no angel is another thing. Did he ever see Joseph Smith? if not, Mr. Cater, did you ever have a revelation, shewing to you that Joseph Smith never had one? If you never had, what do you know about it? Mr. Cater. -- Does Orson Pratt say that all who since 1832 do not believe in Joe Smith, will be damned for ever and ever? Elder Taylor. -- Can you produce the passage? Mr. Cater. -- No! I have not got it here. Does he say so? Elder Taylor. -- Produce your testimony or quotation, and I will answer. I will not answer your statements. We are again told about impostors. Do imposters come with the fulness of the Gospel? Do they teach pure, good, virtuous, and holy principles? Do they teach men to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus, and, they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost? Do they tell them that it is productive of the same effects as it was in the days of Jesus? Does the power of God attend their ministrations? Where is it? Shew me the church having these things. You cannot find it; and yet an impostor has revealed that which all Christendom does not possess. Mr. Cater. -- Where are the plates? Have you seen them? Elder Taylor. -- No. Concerning the plates, Joseph had them in his possession for some time; he only translated part of them, the other part contained things of great moment which were to come forward at a future period for the accomplishment of the purposes of God, and were not to be translated at that time. Furthermore, Joseph Smith was persecuted and mobbed; he never could go out in safety; his house was beset by mobs and searched a number of times; and he was pursued from place to place while he had them in his possession; when he got through translating they were delivered again to the angel. Mr. Cater. -- That's it. Elder Taylor. -- Is there anything extraordinary in that? We read of Moses having the ark of the covenant; that there were in it two tables of stone, a pot of manna, and Aaron's rod that budded. Who could look at them? Who dared look into the ark? Nobody but the high priest could go into the Holy of Holies, and that only once a-year. When the ark was on its way back from the Philistines, certain men were struck dead for attempting to look in. When David was bringing it from Kirjath-jearim, Uzzah stretched out his hand to steady it, when the oxen stumbled and he was struck dead. Will Mr. Cater explain this to me? Why could he not steady the ark? Why could not the others look into it. Daniel had a revelation that he was commanded not to make known. "O, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book even to the time of the end." (Dan. xii. 4.) St. John in the Revelations speaks also of a book that was sealed, and that the seals were to be opened at different times. When these gentlemen explain these things in the Bible, I will enter into a detail of those of a similar kind, connected with the Book of Mormon. Concerning Joseph Smith, as there has been a good deal said about him, I am now going to introduce testimony about his character, that no one will be able to gainsay. It is not the report of this man, that, or the other, but positive living testimony; such as would be received by any court, and it is all I shall say on that subject. In the first place, I give my own, as I did before. I testify that I was acquainted with Joseph Smith for years. I have travelled with him; I have been with him in private and in public; 24 PUBLIC DISCUSSION. I have associated with him in councils of all kinds; I have listened hundreds of times to his public teachings, and his advice to his friends and associates of a more private nature. I have been at his house and seen his deportment in his family. I have seen him arraigned before the tribunals of his country, and seen him honorably acquitted, and delivered from the pernicious breath of slander, and the machinations and falsehoods of wicked and corrupt men. I was with him living, and with him when he died, when he was murdered in Carthage gaol by a ruthless mob, headed by a Methodist minister, named Williams, with their faces painted. I was there and was myself wounded; I at that time received four balls in my body. I have seen him, then, under these various circumstances, and I testify before God, angels, and men, that he was a good, honorable, virtuous man -- that his doctrines were good, scriptural, and wholesome -- that his precepts were such as became a man of God -- that his private and public character was unimpeachable -- and that he lived and died as a man of God and a gentleman. This is my testimony; if it is disputed, bring me a person authorized to receive an affidavit, and I will make one to this effect. I therefore testify of things which I know and of things which I have seen. I will now call upon Mr. Pack. Elder Pack being called upon to bear witness said, I rise -- Mr. Robertson. -- I can't allow Mr. Pack. Mr. Taylor vicar, to conduct the discussion for them. Chairman. -- If that is the case, of course it is out of order. Elder Pack .-- You, sir, proposed when we met to arrange the discussion, that any of us should have the privilege of speaking. It was your proposition, sir, not ours. Chairman. -- That alters the case. Mr. Robertson. -- I understood that if they wished to occupy part of the night, they could have it, but not part of the same time. Elder Taylor. -- This was distinctly understood, sir, and was your own proposition; besides, I think I have a right to occupy my own time as I think proper. Mr. Robertson. -- I object to it. Chairman. -- If Mr. Robertson objects, I suppose we are to consider it irrelevant. Elder Taylor. -- If this is the case, all I have to say is, that these gentlemen have called upon me for testimony; that when I am prepared to give it they will not receive it, and that they do not want truth but contention. I submit to the people. (Cries, "Go on! go on!") Mr. Robertson. -- I shall not object if I am permitted to ask questions. Will you answer me, Mr. Pack? Elder (John) Pack. -- I will if I agree to. Our honorable opponents have seen proper to speak evil of Joseph Smith. I was acquainted with him almost from the commencement of his religious career, and I speak that which I know, and not my opinion. I know that Joseph Smith's character was good -- as good as any man's! Those statements made about him are false. Joseph Smith was a just, honorable, and upright man, and I know it; neither do I know any evil of him. I know that he was persecuted for his religion, and the Saints have always been persecuted. I know that religious men have generally been at the head of these persecutions. I have seen the Saints persecuted when blood has stained their paths. I am not afraid to testify that the mob was headed by Reverend divines. I was once taken by a mob myself. I was travelling with my wife about eighty miles from home, in the State of Missouri. They came to me and stopped my carriage, and asked me if I was a Mormon. I told them, Yes! I am a full-blooded Mormon! They dragged me from my wife into a wood, and told my wife to take a last farewell of me. Sashiel Woods, a Baptist or Presbyterian minister, headed this company; he was their leader. He asked me if I would forsake the Mormons, and deny Mormonism. I told him, No! I would not; I knew that it was true, and I would not give up my faith. They condemned me to death. Sashial Woods then took ten men, and led me into the woods to shoot me, but no one could be found to do it. They quarrelled among themselves, and after some time I was liberated. These things that I have spoken are true; I bear my testimony to them before God and man. I know Joseph Smith was a good, virtuous, honorable man; and, as Mr. Taylor offered, so do I -- bring forth your officers and I will make oath to it. PUBLIC DISCUSSION. 25 Mr. Robertson. -- Did you ever see Joseph Smith work a miracle? Elder Pack. -- Yes! Mr. Robertson. -- Of what diseases? Elder Pack. -- All kinds of diseases. I have seen some lying at the point of death, given up by physicians. I have seen them healed immediately after Joseph Smith had laid his hands on them, and rise from their beds and go forth. Mr. Robertson. -- Where did this take place? Elder Pack. -- Everywhere that he resided; in Missouri, in Ohio, in Illinois, in hundreds of cases. Elder Taylor. -- Mr. Bolton will now testify, -- (Great confusion which lasted several minutes.) Elder (Curtis E.) Bolton. -- I will say, that I am not surprised that these gentlemen wish to prevent me from speaking. Truth and testimony are not what they want. Since I am permitted to speak, however, I testify that I personally knew Joseph Smith. I have lived with him in his family; was with him morning, noon, and night, early and late. I saw him in most trying situations, with friends and enemies; and in all the time that I remained in his family, I never saw the slightest act, nor heard one word, unbecoming a man of God -- a just, upright, pure, prayerful prophet of God; and in these matters I consider myself as good a judge as any man in this hall, or in this city. I have been as well educated as any man in this hall, or in this city, and am as well brought up; and if any man doubts my word, let him apply to me, and I will furnish him with most satisfactory references, either in France, England, or America. Concerning the character of Joseph Smith, if my word is doubted, as my brethren have offered to do, so do I -- bring a person empowered to receive an affidavit, and I will swear to the truth of what I have said. The Rev. Mr. Groves said, that they had brought the discussion for the night to a close with what success they best knew. He would only repeat his exhortation to sincere and fervent private prayer by all who heard him, that good might come of what they had heard; that if any were under a delusion they might be enlightened, and that if ever repeated it might be dispelled. THIRD NIGHT'S DISCUSSION. The chair having been taken at seven o'clock, it was agreed that the question for the night should be, after the accusing party had spoken half an hour on the authority of Mr. Taylor, that Mr. Taylor should answer, and then go on to examine the faith and calling of his opponents.Mr. Cater proposed to read a document, that he said he had forgotten to read on a previous night, concerning the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Elder Taylor. -- I object, it is out of order. Chairman. -- It certainly is out of order. Mr. Cater. -- It is an important document, and I wish to read it. Elder Taylor. -- I certainly shall object; I do not think it proper. My opponents have had two night to examine my principles; they certainly had time to bring forth their documents. Mr. Cater. -- Mr. Chairman, it is a document of importance, and I wish to read it. Elder Taylor. -- I have already given this party half-an-hour which belongs to me, on the plea of finishing important things; it will, of course, take me half-an-hour to reply. I then only have an hour to examine their doctrines. I will not give way. I believe it is introduced for the purpose of preventing my examining their doctrines. Chairman. -- I must decide that to read the document is irregular, though it shows little desire for inquiry to object to it. Mr. Cater would not press the reading of the document, but could only say, that had he been permitted to read it, it would have proved all he had alleged against Mr. Taylor on that particular point. To him it appeared that the Mormonites belonged to two classes -- the deceived and the deceivers. He did not doubt but that Mr. Taylor 26 PUBLIC DISCUSSION. belong to the former class, though he was a little too fond of titles and distinctions. They had on the previous night a new title: Mr. Pack had said he was a "full-blooded Mormon," and for this he had been about to be shot. He could not but think that all the story of Mr. Pack being condemned to death must have been done for what the American's call a "hoax." But, as Mr. Pack was a "full-blooded Mormon," perhaps he could give them a specimen of his speaking with tongues. He had told them of the miraculous cure of the sick, but there was nothing more usual than for such cures to be performed by imagination, as lame persons have been known to run at the cry of fire. Nor is there anything more easy than to simulate disease; and could not Joseph Smith, who had the hardihood to say that angels came down from heaven to tell him to ride a black horse with a switch tail, be capable of having sickness simulated? Again, he demanded why there was the guilty concealment as to the doctrine of all being damned who did not believe in Joseph Smith since 1832. It would appear also frown their books, they did not believe that God knew anything that was going on upon the earth, except by means of angels or personal descent; and what did the audience think was their notion of an angel? Martin Harris said, an angel was "an old man in a gray coat with his throat cut!" Now, with all seriousness, he (Mr. Cater) declared that it was one of the grossest impostures that ever was placed on man by the enemy of souls; enough to disturb the ashes of our ancestors in their graves. He reminded his opponents, severally, that they must all appear at the judgment seat of Christ to answer for the deeds done in the body.--What he said of their system he said without any feelings of animosity to themselves; and might God grant that they might all obtain mercy when the secrets of all hearts should be laid open. Elder Taylor. -- Ladies, gentlemen, and friends, I rise, as on all former occasions, with confidence, knowing in whom I trust, and the cause in which I am engaged. These gentlemen complain of not having time; they tell us they have a new importation of stories, and they should like to have a time to bring them forth; they complain that they have not had an opportunity of bringing forth such testimony as they could have obtained. I would ask why they challenge me to discuss those principles, if they were not prepared to do so? I might make the same excuse; I am here without books too. If I had had time, I could have had books also to have met every scurrilous story that they have brought, and all that they can bring; testimony, too, that would have made them vomit up again those filthy statements that they have swallowed so greedily, unless indeed they had los |